We are delighted to welcome Barbara Dunn as our guest today.
Barbara is one of the top legal experts in our industry and an absolute powerhouse in her field! She joins us today to share her professional journey and explore the realities of owning and running a business.
Stay tuned for Barbara’s valuable insights on the legal aspects every business owner must consider to thrive in the current dynamic and competitive business landscape.
Barbara’s Professional Journey
Barbara is an experienced attorney specializing in nonprofit, tax-exempt organizations, and association law. She built a career specializing in legal counsel for associations and nonprofit organizations. With her extensive experience in contract negotiation, risk management, and governance, she has guided many organizations through complex legal challenges. Her expertise has been especially valuable in helping organizations adapt to changing environments, including the shift to virtual events and navigating pandemic-related disruptions.
Legal Support During the Pandemic
During the COVID-19 pandemic, Barbara offered vital support for associations having to cancel or reschedule large-scale in-person events. She helped them navigate the force majeure clauses in their contracts and assess legal and practical risks. Effective communication and thorough documentation were essential for her success in resolving disputes with venues and vendors.
Contracts and Force Majeure
During the pandemic, Barbara encountered many contracts that were outdated or vague, leaving associations vulnerable to unexpected disruptions. She highlights the importance of having force majeure clauses, regular contract reviews, and updates that include specific language about public health emergencies and related government actions.
Shifting to Virtual and Hybrid Events
With virtual and hybrid events becoming more commonplace, organizations should update their contracts and legal documents to make them applicable to intellectual property rights, accessibility needs, and agreements with tech vendors for virtual and hybrid events.
Risk Management and Insurance
Legal protection also means ensuring insurance coverage is up to date. Associations should work with insurance brokers to cover the possibility of event cancellations or cyber risks. Solid internal planning and governance policies will help keep those risks in check.
Governance and Communication
Barbara advises boards and executive teams to revisit bylaws and governance structures to keep up with operational changes. Clear and open communication within the association, with members and outside partners, is the key to handling risks smoothly, especially in tough times or during transitions.
Long-Term Lessons for Associations
Associations should adopt a forward-thinking approach to risk and legal preparedness rather than reacting only after issues arise. They should stay flexible, have regular legal reviews, and nurture good relationships with their lawyers, vendors, and team members. Being proactive about risk and legal readiness will help associations stay ahead instead of reacting frantically when problems arise.
Bio: Barbara Dunn
Barbara Dunn is a lawyer and trusted advisor to meeting professionals and trade show organizers. With more than three decades of experience, Barbara collaborates with her clients as they navigate complex contract negotiations and finalize effective contracts for their meetings, events, and trade shows. Barbara also represents nonprofit organizations as they launch, pursue federal tax exemptions, develop governing documents, train board members, and build their operations. Barbara is the owner of her law practice, Barbara Dunn Law PLLC, following her tenure as a capital partner at the law firm of Barnes & Thornburg.
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“Don’t be intimidated to stand up for your business.”
Barbara Dunn
Full transcript of episode 272 of The Business of Meetings podcast, Eric Rozenberg with Barbara Dunn. Lightly edited for readability.
Eric Rozenberg: Hello and welcome to the Business of Meetings Podcast. I’m your host, Eric Rozenberg. Over the years, I’ve had the privilege of helping businesses in the meetings and events industry grow and succeed. And I’m excited to share that experience with you. If you feel alone and overwhelmed, and if you’re looking to take your business to the next level, improve your strategy and sales, and connect with like-minded professionals, you are in the right place. I invite you to visit eventbusinessformula.com and join our community of event business owners dedicated to exponential growth. Now let’s dive into today’s episode.
Hello and welcome to a new episode of the Business of Meetings Podcast, and today I’m absolutely delighted to speak with a rock star in our industry. I’ve known her for years. She is one of the top lawyer, if not the top lawyer, in our industry. We’re going to talk about her journey. We’re going to talk about what it is to own your own business. And we’re going to talk about what you should be thinking about when you own your own business with no one else than the one and only Barbara Dunn. Barbara, it’s so great to have you on the podcast today.
Barbara Dunn: It’s a pleasure to be with you and for all of our listeners today.
Eric Rozenberg: And so we’ve known each other for years, but I never knew about your own personal journey and how you end up being a lawyer in our industry. So what is your journey?
Barbara Dunn: Absolutely. Well, I’m happy to share my journey with you and I, like you, Eric, find it very interesting when folks tell me about their journey. Some folks’ path is very straight and direct and others, it curves around, and yet we’re all in the same place. So, I’m very fortunate to get to work in the meetings industry. This is my 33rd year practicing as a lawyer. I always knew I wanted to be a lawyer, but not necessarily what type of law that I wanted to practice. And so, it wasn’t really until I got to law school in my first semester started discovering the core classes, one of which is contracts. And that really clicked with me. I’d had some business law classes in undergrad and so a lot of the concepts made sense to me and I liked that. I could tell already far more than I liked litigation. I liked helping clients more than getting into arguments, although the job involves both sometimes.
And so I was fortunate when I needed a part-time job during law school that I found myself at the local boutique firm Howe & Hutton, run by Jonathan Howe, who many of your listeners will know as just the esteemed colleague to the industry for all of us, and his partner Terry Hutton. So I was fortunate to get to work at Howe & Hutton for 23 years, which includes my time during law school. And what I found in working there is really the understanding and depth of knowledge of not only nonprofit organizations and the legal work there, but those groups that have the meetings, conventions and trade shows. And I had firsthand writing articles, talking to clients, right on, it was a sink or swim approach. And I learned so much through that process. And as I learned, I developed the skill set and the confidence like so many folks do.
And so when I had an opportunity to move over to a larger firm, Barnes & Thornburg, I was fortunate to accept that opportunity and get to work with another industry mentor, Paula Getter]. Work with her alongside for many years, again learn more things, also become a mentor for lots of new lawyers and colleagues, which really excites me, so I’m happy to do that and really watch that practice grow over a long time. But Eric, owning a business has always been a goal of mine, and in the last year and a half I kind of got to the point in myself of saying, if not now, when? And I was very fortunate to have the confidence and support of my family and industry peers and colleagues behind me. And what I knew at that point in my practice is that it’s the meetings and travel work, among all the work that I’ve done over the years, that I really want to hone in on, that I really want to specialize in, and that I really want to customize and personalize for my clients. And a lot of that just can’t be done in a larger platform. So, this was an opportunity to hang my shingle at last. Very scary and exciting at the same time.
So, here brings me my journey. I’m just shortly into the new business. I’m grateful for the continued support of the community. And it’s talking with folks like you, Eric, and other industry professionals that keeps me grounded, keeps me in reality with client problems and challenges. And so I feel very focused that my journey led me to chatting with you today.
Eric Rozenberg: Wonderful. And I’m delighted we can talk. In your capacity as a business owner, what are you thinking now about how you grow the business? How you going to find the clients? Because obviously before it might not have been your main responsibility or there was other people doing it in the firm. So how are you thinking now about growing the business and finding new clients?
Barbara Dunn: Absolutely. So, thinking about growing the business, as you point out, even in a large firm environment, we certainly maintained and grew our practices, and that’s a passion of mine, just generally being entrepreneurial. So, I had that. But what you learn in your own business, of course, is doing the day-to-day administrative aspects of running a business that in a large firm you don’t need to worry about, you don’t need to think about. So coming over as a lawyer, I was fortunate to have clients that wanted to continue to work with me, and at the same time, since I started the business, I’ve attracted new clients. Primarily I’ve attracted them through the way I have over many years now, fortunately, word of mouth recommendations from other clients and industry professionals. But I have definitely dipped into social media and launched a lot of content, content that I’ve had in the past, webinars, articles, looking at doing industry focused things with professionals like yourself, and that also has attracted, and my hope is that it will attract new clients.
And as I often share with folks that are coming up in the industry, or even just lawyers practicing in any field, you got to plant the seeds along the way. Some things are going to sprout right away. Other things you might think will never sprout. And yet, there will be a day, likely in them knowing that you’re out there and doing the work, that you will reconnect. And so, that’s how I view it, Eric, in terms of cultivating the business now. Also, I understand the delicate balance between working on your business and working in your business.
Eric Rozenberg: Absolutely.
Barbara Dunn: I’m learning that.
Eric Rozenberg: Yeah. Absolutely. No, what you say is exactly the same for any small business owner, and definitely for small entrepreneur in our industry, even solopreneur, is exactly the same. Now, have you also noticed any difference in how you spend your time? Because when you own your business, there’s some responsibilities. You’re also managing team, managing vendors. Are you looking at the time you’re spending to practice law, to grow the business, and to run the business?
Barbara Dunn: Yes, I think that is an important component, just in the manner that you described it, Eric, is that I start the better part of my day on and off on the business, ending with the business, everything from opening files to making sure bills and payments are processed. But in between, I’ve got the practice time set up. So my goal in any given day would be to balance the amount of time, hopefully maximize the amount of time that I bill, that’s the commodity, if you will, that I sell, with the non-billable work, and also rely on others for admin support that I might not need to do myself. And that’s, I’ve noticed over the last several months, a learned skill, because I think for a lot of folks, certainly myself included, the tendency might be to do it all yourself, think you can do it all yourself. But if you pause and say, “What’s the best way for me to maximize the value I bring to the business and value others bring to the business, and help chart that out?” it makes a big difference.
And the other thing I’ve noticed, Eric, is how much time I spent in a larger environment on interoffice emails, correspondence, meetings, all of which are necessary in a larger environment and all of which that I’ve benefited from. But not having that has brought lots of hours back to my day, which definitely, I’ll say, I think about how I could best use that time each day.
Eric Rozenberg: That’s awesome. When I started my first business, corporate events agency in Brussels, the first two years, my thinking was it’s my brand, it’s my client, it’s my way of operating, nobody does it better than me. And I was driving 150 miles an hour into a wall until I realized this is not how you grow a business, and that’s unfortunately what many people starting their business do, especially coming from a large firm. So kudos to you to already put the things in place.
Now, when we came from Belgium to America, my wife was a lawyer as well, and she’s now a realtor with Kellum Luxury here in South Florida. And the number of time that, first of all, she said it’s better to go and find a lawyer and speak with the lawyer before the project, before signing anything. But second, the number of time I heard an answer which quite frankly frustrate me a lot as a business owner, but it’s probably the right answer, is “it depends.” And those two words, like, huh. So how can business owners in our industry look at working with a lawyer? What is the right timing to do it? And what would you say to them when they’re getting an answer “it depends”?
Barbara Dunn: Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing your wife’s experience and, as you saw me smile, the thought of that, the first adage being that it’s easier and cheaper to keep you out of trouble than to get you out of trouble. And then the second, “it depends,” which by the way, I think one of our industry friends had given me a t-shirt at one point that said that, because I think I’ve said that so often. As I do small business owner’s perspective, I myself put on my team, just as I would an accountant and other professionals. Look, just because I’m a lawyer and I do this work doesn’t mean I know what’s best in starting a small business and all the various structures surrounding it.
And so while I know for a lot of individuals that can be a daunting task to think about engaging a lawyer and accountants, there are lots of resources out there. And I encourage talking to friends, first of all, others that own businesses, and making some outreach to different lawyers. Despite the reputation, I think lawyers are very open to having exploratory calls and conversations with potential clients, not on the clock. So finding a lawyer that’s a really good fit, that knows what you want, and then understanding how they bill. Are they billing on an hourly basis? Are they billing on a flat fee basis? You never want to get those skis out in front of you. So making sure that you know going in what that process is going to look like.
But putting the lawyer on your team early on is so much better, because I know, and working with my clients as well, unwinding things, filings, for example, corporate filings that might not have been done right, it’s probably going to take twice as much as it would be to do it right in the first place. And while I know there’s lots of online resources now for small business owners, certainly many of which are good and reliable, it’s nice to have a nodding head saying, “Yes, that’s what I would do,” or “Yes, I agree.” So even a lawyer that might perform a sounding board role for your company is a good strategy.
And again, I think the best lawyers to me, again, are approachable, but also they’re collaborators. So, just like every other professional working within your business, they want to know what your goal is. They want to know how they can help. I do the same with my clients. Yes, there are still lawyers that will want to turn the meter on and run up the clock. I’d like to think their practice model is going away in favor of folks that will do things on a project basis. They’re not always on the clock. They want to invest time in their clients because they’re in it for the long haul. So, that’s the type of lawyer I would encourage small business owners to look for. And again, I think mostly, and perhaps you’ve experienced this yourself, Eric, the peer-to-peer referrals to me are really valuable.
Eric Rozenberg: Absolutely. And what about the “it depends”?
Barbara Dunn: Oh, the “it depends.” Yes. It’s, to your point, you have a burning question. Yes or no, right? I had a client just the other day, yesterday I think, say, “Does my force majeure clause apply in my hotel contract if 30% of my people can’t come to the meeting because of a government order, executive order?” right? And in an email or on a phone call, the answer really has to be “it depends,” because in fact it does depend on the contract language. And so oftentimes the “send me the contract,” the client might think, “Oh, groan, now you’re going to spend all this time reviewing the contract.” For me, that’s not the case. One quick look at the contract and the provision at issue, and talking through the facts with the client, what’s really going on, this executive order in my example, that really forms the basis of what should be a straightforward answer that isn’t too difficult to come by.
The “it depends,” though, I think also serves another purpose, and that is, for the client, it tells them what information or facts are important to know in order to answer that question. And so in a lot of cases I’ll say the “it depends” answer, and of course it’s “it depends on what,” share what I’m looking for, and have that individual go back and gather the information so that you can arrive at an answer. So again, I think it serves that purpose. Ultimately, lawyer, like the client, certainly wants to get to an answer, wants to help map a path. But a lot of times, just right off the bat, and look, I’ll say myself too, and sometimes in deference to the groan that I might get on the “it depends,” I’ll say things like “in general,” right? And I’ll give it an answer. But as a longtime industry colleague of mine said, the general rule applies to no one in particular.
Eric Rozenberg: Yeah.
Barbara Dunn: Right. So that answer, you could rely on it, right, to some extent, but we’re back to kind of where we started.
Eric Rozenberg: Yes. No, I get it. Thank you for that. I had a situation one day where this volcano in Iceland exploded and there was a cloud of ashes all over Europe, closing one airport after the other, and we had obviously contract on different project. And one of the five project we had the following week, I’ll never forget, was an incentive trip to Vietnam. And so we work on weekend with my team, and then on Monday morning I was driving to the client, and from my car I call my partner in Vietnam and I say, “George, I’m getting to the client. I’ve talked about everything we discussed this weekend. Charles de Gaulle is closed and we’re supposed to leave from Paris on Wednesday. Even if they open, it’s going to be a nightmare. And people are afraid to go. They don’t know if they’re gonna be stuck in Vietnam. Are you okay that we postpone everything at no cost for the client?” And he said, “Yes, okay.” “Thank you.”
And I arrive at the client and I told the client what I recommend. Say, “What are you recommending?” I said, “I think you should postpone.” I said, “What’s going, how much is it going to cost?” I said, “The airline, nothing. I have the email. They’re ready.” It was Vietnam Airlines. “They’re ready to postpone at no cost.” “And what about the program, the hotel?” And it was the InterContinental in Hanoi, the dinner in Ha Long Bay. I said, “Nothing.” “So, what do you mean nothing?” “No, I just spoke with George, I’m understanding. And he said okay.” And I helped them communicate with their winners, who actually were calling to thank them that they should not go at that moment.
The reason I’m sharing this with you is that I never sign anything. Well, obviously there’s a contract in place for everything. But that day, that Monday morning, I didn’t ask George to send me and confirm me everything on email, because it was too late already. I was going to the client, and the client never asked me to confirm everything on paper, and everything went very well, and we postponed, and the whole program went well. I don’t think that this would still be possible today. Is this something that would never happen in America?
Barbara Dunn: Well, it’s an amazing story and I appreciate that you shared that, and I will say stories like that certainly have happened in America, and even around the Icelandic volcano, the example that you mentioned. And first, from a business perspective, certainly your relationships with the client, the customer, and your partner just show the strength of the business relationships and the strength of our industry. And our industry obviously always stands tall in need when there’s challenges, and we’ve lived through a lot of those. So, I appreciate that very much about the industry.
From a lawyer standpoint, I think you did exactly what I would advise, which is you got to focus on the practical first. We can always write something up later. I often say to clients, we can always play cleanup later. But in the moment, I mean, you had hours really before everything was to a point of no return, that you had to act and you had to mobilize. So I think that’s guidance still happens today. We know things happen quite quickly and we need to respond quickly. And in those instances, having the ability to rely on your partners is important, but then following it up when possible with writing. Even if it’s simply a confirming email or a text or something. And as your customers, your clients might be large corporations. Their auditors are going to want to see a paper trail. They’re going to want to see, “Tell me where it says we closed it out.” And of course, the lawyers will want to see that, too. But that doesn’t all have to happen on that first day, right? That decision making point.
I think one thing I found, Eric, and I know you work well with your clients, and your example is a perfect one. Clients have to be prepared. Hope for the best, plan for the worst. And clients have to be prepared for the exact scenario and many others that you gave, so that if, and sometimes when, those situations arrive, they know who to mobilize. They know the people to mobilize on the communications team, the people to mobilize on the accounting team, on the insurance team. Sometimes some of these cancellations involve cancellation insurance, and legal team, and so forth. Just being able to say, “We’re going to invoke this plan, this strategy,” have perhaps even holding statements or plans. That’s significant. And the groups that invest in planning that, and certainly professionals like yourself that help guide them on that, it’s a significant investment, but one worthwhile, because then if you’re in those short amount of time as you were, you’re really not making a knee-jerk reaction to the situation. You’ve thought this through. You’ve had experiences before. You’ve shared with the client. The client was already hearing from the winners. You talked to the boots on the ground. They were sharing with you what the issues were.
So, that to me is a great example, again, both of our industry, but also in the way that you could manage a potential legal issue in the moment, and yet still go back, as you might have later on, to tie things up in a bow, right? To get the closure that the client might need, but feel that you have the trust to rely on it in that moment, in that day.
Eric Rozenberg: Yeah. Yeah, that’s a great point. And you just mentioned trust, which is absolutely essential and which make me think of the counter example. Trust. I remember reading one of the book of Richard Branson, Losing My Virginity, about Virgin companies, and if I’m not mistaken, at one stage he’s talking about how British Airways was trying to incentivize clients at the airport to switch from Virgin to BA, which was crazy. And he asked advice to someone and said, “Sue the bastard.” And being a small business, okay? And what I do now, I don’t plan meetings anymore, but I’m coaching business owners, small business owners, solopreneur, exclusively in our industry.
And it reminds me of a story of David against Goliath. I had this client, has a lot of trust in medical device company in Europe, and we were working for the European headquarters, and for years we’ve been doing key opinion leader meeting, we’ve been doing sales meeting, we’ve been doing incentive, product launch for them, a lot. And one day we were working on a sales meeting, and they keep adding more people and adding more people, and there were even people coming from the US headquarter. And when we arrived about two weeks before the meeting, it was supposed to be, I remember, at the Conrad in Istanbul. And because of the relationship I had with the hotel and with the company, and because of the relationship and the trust that I have with the client, they were keeping asking more things. We were providing. The hotel was asking for a contract signed, but because of the relationship, and he knew we’ve done the inspection, they were holding the rooms.
And then arrived a new head for Europe, and he arrived on Sunday. On Monday they were asking me 50 additional rooms, and on Wednesday he was cancelling everything. I’m like, what? And so there were obviously cancellation cost, which my counterpart in the company, I’ve been working for years with, and there was a mutual trust, I understood that he was told by the new boss of Europe to cancel. He couldn’t do anything else. And so we had finally a meeting with my contact in the company, as well as the new boss, and my business partner. And in the middle of conversation I realized what was going on, and I realized how vicious this new responsible for Europe was when he said, “Well, I don’t understand how you run your company if you’re able to commit for such number of rooms without having us signing a contract. I didn’t sign any contract. There is no cancellation cost and you can sue us if you want.”
So here I am, the little company doing several millions in revenue, against this gigantic company which is listed on the stock exchange. And I look at him and I said, “Please give me the name of your lawyer, because if you think that I’m going to let my reputation go down the drain because you’re a liar, that is not going to happen.” And two weeks later, they were paying all the cancellation costs. And of course I lost the client. I knew that. So transpose this to all the solopreneurs and all the small business owners. And sometimes a big company can play the clock. They don’t care about spending cost with lawyers and that. So what is your advice for small business owners in our industry to prevent such situation to happen, and/or if it’s not preventable, what can they do afterwards? Sorry for being long with the example. I just want to set up the context.
Barbara Dunn: Well, it is perfect, and I got excited and started smiling, as you saw, when I heard you asked for that name of the lawyer, because to me, that’s calling your bluff. And I don’t play poker often, but to me that’s exactly the type of approach that needed to be taken. If you dissect the situation that you encountered, certainly, as you point out in your comments, having a contract at each point in that relationship, right, with that meeting, with the hotel, with the client, and so forth. Certainly, that would be my best guidance. And certainly, that’s likely the way you always operated. But we all know that exceptions get made for a lot of reasons. And as a business owner, you made a business call and a judgment to do that. And the fact is that hopefully a lot of times that works out fine. But we know oftentimes making those exceptions can come back and haunt the group.
But that said, what you did in your example is exactly what I would tell a client. Put your organization first. Not necessarily on the financial side. I mean, certainly not downplaying that. That’s going to be critical. But you just said your reputation, your integrity, your business. That’s the value you have. And so the thought or narrative that all this work and investment and everything you did was all for naught, or was done in a manner that wasn’t authorized, whatever the narrative is going to be or could be, you stood up to that. And that to me is a great place to start.
And so often when a client calls and explains a dispute like that, I will look at it first as a business owner and ask what’s in the best interest of you personally. Sometimes, the business you mentioned, you lost the client. You went in knowing you’re going to lose the client. Other times, maybe it’s not going to play out that way. So thinking through all the business implications is important, but also calling the bluff, letting the other party know it’s not personal, it’s just business. Just as if they shared that with you, you shared that with them, because your interest in getting the information on their lawyer was, I suspect, and if you got that information and shared it with me, I would contact that lawyer from a business perspective. Initially, I would contact that owner and say, “I’ve worked with this company before. I know they don’t do business that way. We’ve got a lot of paper trail on them telling me to do all these things.” And the dialogue goes on from there.
So, I think, certainly lawyers, non-lawyers, don’t be intimidated to ask, just as you did. Don’t be intimidated to stand up for your business. That’s first and foremost. Often I’ll say to a client, what you provided to the client was of value. The client took that value and you’re not being compensated for it in a lot of these cases, in that example. So that needs to be addressed, and some of these fundamental arguments are important. But at the end of the day, your business, your reputation, that’s really going to be important. A lot of business owners take a position too. They say, “Well, I don’t want to rock the boat. I don’t want to challenge it.” But I’ll tell you, Eric, in the example that you gave me, if you had done that in this situation, I don’t know how you could do that. The likelihood of you getting any more business with this company was probably already minimal.
Eric Rozenberg: Absolutely.
Barbara Dunn: But then I’d also like to think you planted seeds with that company with a lot of people. And when it’s time to change who’s in charge, one of those alliant folks are going to be there. And that goes back to you preserving your business and your reputation. And the folks there know that, no matter what the particulars of that situation are. So I think following up in the moment as you did, for a business owner that’s in the face of a dispute, you didn’t panic. You asked for the information. You didn’t fly off the handle. You didn’t send a nasty email. Likely you took the information. Give yourself always time to process it. We all need time to process things. Think it through and then follow up with your next approach. And don’t be afraid in that moment to take the information, and sometimes silence is your friend, right? “Thank you very much.” You end the call, you end the email, whatever the case may be. That can be important, because we know oftentimes overexplaining and so forth can also be damaging.
But I think that the example you gave again just underscores, as business owners, you have to anticipate the types of disputes that might commonly come up in your particular business and think of how you want to handle them. Just as we were talking about with crisis management, running the drill, being prepared, and then having that voice of reason on you that, when you’re in the moment and you want to click send to something, there’s something that’s stopping you, right? There’s some reason, maybe it’s your family, friends, co-owners, whatever the case may be. Don’t be shy about giving yourself that time to think it through and standing up for yourself.
And the David Goliath scenarios are incredibly difficult, but in those moments I would still tell the Davids of the world, you still can and should stand up for yourself, stand up for your business. Even if you say, “You know what, you owe me a lot of money and we’re going on record that you owe me money, but for the moment, I’m going to choose to walk away.” Even if you do that, that’s not a defeat. That’s standing up in the face of that. And that’s okay, too. Litigation doesn’t benefit anybody really, other than maybe the lawyers. And even then, it doesn’t benefit the lawyers, because clients aren’t happy when they’re in litigation. So, that’s what we try to avoid at all cost. But I think as a business owner, just being prepared and giving yourself time in the moment is the best thing that you could do.
Eric Rozenberg: Wonderful. Thank you. Barbara, I’m sure you’ve seen many clients, many people that have been working meetings outside of the US. What would you advise a small business owner that is a third party that is working for a large firm, and they’re planning a meeting in Europe, and then they received the contract and they come back with 25 pages of addendum. And in Europe they say, “25 pages of addendum?” As my friend in New Jersey said, “Forget about it. I’m not going to do that. And if you want those room at that venue, I’m not going to look through the 25 pages of your addendum.” And then you, as a small business owner here in America, has to go back to the client and say they don’t want to look at the addendum. I’m sure you’ve seen that situation. What is your advice?
Barbara Dunn: Absolutely. I have seen that situation, and I think, as a small business owner and doing business in a country outside of your own, the most important thing you can do is have an understanding of the business culture and the climate there and the types of vendors that you’re working with. In a lot of cases, working with a professional conference organizer or other boots on the ground in that country is probably the best thing you can do. It’s the best thing the client can do. They could play a small role. They could play a large role. Now, certainly if you have experience doing business in that particular country, perhaps that isn’t needed. But the point of that is to say, we need to know, the client needs to know, what are the push buttons in that particular country, and how do we manage within that compared to what we normally see, for example, in a contract, those clauses.
So, to me it comes back, and I use this term a lot, Eric, with clients. What is your risk tolerance? Do you have a high level of risk tolerance? In other words, you want to book this hotel no matter what the contract says? Or do you have a very low risk tolerance? You’re not willing to take any. And somewhere in between is where companies and clients land. So doing business in a culture and an environment where you’re not accustomed presents its own set of risks. Yet working with a local can dispel a lot of those, so that you can understand the risk.
And then going back to the customer, the key would be prioritize the issues. For example, is it a 100% prepayment for rooms and food and beverage, period? Is that what’s important in that culture? If so, how do we manage our normal “we don’t pay you anything until 60 days after,” right? And how do you manage within that? What contract clauses might be relevant to that? What contract clauses don’t we need? There are lots of things that might be specific to the local in the meeting. The point is pick and choose, but the ones you’re going to try to include in any contract, no matter the type, are going to be the ones that are going to help balance you out, if you will, from the risk. How much risk are you willing to take? Be practical.
I think the guidance that business owners can have with their clients and colleagues is to talk about risk in a way, talk about a particular type of contract and say, “What’s your primary risk or exposure?” You often hear that word with a particular contract. “Let’s start there, and let’s work our way back and prioritize those risks.” And I think that working, Eric, coupled with working with someone on the ground, is familiar with territory. I think that serves the clients best. Look, if the client still says, “No, we need this 25-page addendum,” and the hoist just says, “Sorry, we have other business,” that’s the client’s choice, right? It’s a business choice that they make, that they didn’t want to assume that. So, I think in a lot of cases, I wouldn’t take it blindly and say, “Well, that hotel never make changes the contract.” And yet, I wouldn’t take it the other way either, right? Somewhere in between is that risk assessment and then that allocation.
Eric Rozenberg: That’s a great advice. Thank you for that. I could speak with you for hours. It’s a podcast format, but I would not want to end our conversation today without asking you about AI. Same way that a lot of people would tend to diagnose themselves with, like I call it, a Google doctor. Today with AI, they might be tempted of looking at contracts, looking at law, by interrogating Grok or ChatGPT or Gemini or whatever it is, or Claude. What is your advice with that? And how is AI really helping, changing, or being a danger when it comes to running the business for small business owners and contract?
Barbara Dunn: I’ll look at it from two perspectives, Eric. First, on behalf of my clients in the meetings industry, certainly harnessing AI in connection with their meetings, and then second, as a lawyer in my own practice. On the meetings industry side and working with clients, anytime I’m working with a client that’s going to retain a vendor that’s going to develop content for them, speaker, entertainer, someone to write an article, graphic design, event technology, right? The list goes on. I’ll want to make sure that they have the conversation about how that vendor is going to use AI. Not necessarily that they can’t use it, but how are they going to use it? Are they going to use it to generate ideas, or, frighteningly so, are they going to put confidential data, personal data, into one of these open source platforms, AI? So having those conversations is important. Putting in some baseline language in the contract about it, just to make sure everybody’s clear, is important too, because the value that the client is getting could be jeopardized by a misuse of AI, and the rest. Also, if confidential data is fed into one of these platforms, have you violated another agreement you might have with another company about keeping it confidential, and so forth? So that’s the cautionary tale. But absent that, it’s quite manageable, and I know that technology continues to evolve, and groups should consider it and embrace it.
On the legal side, lawyers are probably the most risk adverse themselves, or we counsel clients. And the one thing, I think, across the legal industry, the cautionary tale on AI was all of the examples of how AI went wrong. All the examples of lawyer in front of a judge that was pleading an argument based on a case that wasn’t even true, wasn’t think, the AI that graduated law school, right? We hear these things. But I will say the bar associations in the states have very much come around now to understanding that AI isn’t the bad entity here, that there is a way that it can be used in the legal setting. And so I think what you’re seeing across large firms, and now my own small firm, this is an opportunity for me to discover how it could be used. And I’m fortunate to get to know my practice enough to where I could understand what voids or gaps or support AI could provide in services of clients, reviews and output, and what gaps that it might not be able to provide, or that I still need to look into.
So, I think I’m cautionary in my use, but I will say when I’m looking to do a task, the next task on my list, maybe it’s not the client work, but it’s something else, of generating a summary or something, I might pause and think, is there a way that AI could help me here? Is there a way I could again work with AI more and teach it more, and so forth, not fearing it? And again, I think lawyers were worried about being disciplined and so forth for using it. Again, absent feeding in confidential information, I’d like to think that’s not largely the concern. More so, there are always going to be nuances in any industry that AI may not be able to cover. But if it could take you a percentage of the way there, and again, as a small business owner, absolutely, I see that value. Explore it. Find out more about it. And we know, as we speak, all the tools continue to improve. And so I’m much more open to it in a way that I haven’t been, partly as a business owner now myself, but also partly as I know that technology continues to evolve and improve, and that might make me more likely to utilize it in a way and feel like I can have oversight on that, and make sure that the output, the work product, right, is something that I would stand behind.
Eric Rozenberg: Wonderful, Barbara. I thank you so much. How do people get in touch with you?
Barbara Dunn: Thanks so much, Eric. Again, it’s been my pleasure. Please visit my website, barbaradunnlaw.com. Lots of resource materials. Also, you’ll find videos on YouTube and other channels. I welcome collaboration in the industry. And again, thank you so much, Eric, for inviting me to be part of your important podcast and the conversation as a whole, and I look forward to reconnecting with you soon.
Eric Rozenberg: Same here. Thank you very much.
Thank you for tuning in to the Business of Meetings Podcast. I hope you found today’s episode valuable. If you enjoyed the show, the most important thing you can do is leave a review and share it with your colleagues. It really helps spread the word. I truly appreciate your support. And if you’re ready to take your business to the next level, don’t forget to visit eventbusinessformula.com to learn more about how we are helping event business owners like you. Thanks again for listening and I’ll see you next time.
